tv Fareed Zakaria GPS CNN December 18, 2016 10:00am-11:01am PST
this is gps, the goebl public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed sa car ra. we have an important show for you. we'll start with russia. is america's relationship with this long-time foe about to change quite dramatically? did russia push for trump's election? and why? can america counter russia's black ops? also, the paris agreement on climate change. >> this gives us the best possible shot to save the one planet we've got. will president-elect trump answer it?
i'll make the case why he should not. and can cities go their own way. the major of los angeles, the biggest city in the biggest state in the union on the power of the nation's mayors to resist and counter trump on immigrat n immigration, climate change and much else. finally, a last look at aleppo. >> you bear responsibility for these atros citis. but first here is my take. we are now getting a sense of american foreign policy under donald trump. the president-elect has consistently signalled he wants to be accommodating toward russia and tough on china. that seems to work backwards. china is for the most part comfortable with the american led international system. russia is actively trying to up end it.
mitt romney said russia was america's number one foe. president obama mocked the claim and myself included thought it was an exaggeration. we were wrong. romney was right. russian was a regional power. that made it a nuisance, but not a global threat. it is an accurate picture of russia's position, which has only gotten worse since 2012. the country's economic has actually shrunk for two years now. over the past decade, state spending has risen from 35% of the economy to a staggering 70%. the country's sovereign debt is now rated as junk. but under putin russia found a way to assert itself gio politically. it's found a way to leverage its strength using cyber power. we are now gaining a fuller
picture of russia's use of its power, which began years ago with operations in russia its, georgia, ukraine and other countries and finally in the united states during the past presidential campaign. including hacking, trolling, fake news and counter intelligence aimed at discredited politicians, interfering with campaigns and tilting elections. observing russia over the three years, the commander noted that some of moscow's growing offensive efforts are of a breath that the european continent has not seen since the end of 2002. china is an economic super power. it is already the world's largest economy. it spends $215 billion on its military, which is about three
times russia's defense budget. and it's porn results total over three trillion dollars, which is eight times russia's. many people have assumed given this e nor maus arsenal of strength, china would assert itself and it's done so in southeast asia. but china has become a status quo power of sorts. comfortable with the world in which it has grown rich and wary of overturning a global system in which it is not integrated. whether on climate change or peace keeping, china is willing to play a more constructive role in recent years than ever before. it has a greater capacity to engage in attacks than russia. but it has not so far engaged in anything as destabilizing as russia's efforts to undermine the western democratic order
itself. keep in mind that china's view of the world has been fundamentally bemine. putin, by contrast, believes that the end of soviet power was the greatest catastrophe of the 20th century and that russia has been humiliated every since. his goal appears to be to overturn the american order. why would an american president-elect help putin achieve that goal? for more go to cnn.com/fareed and read my column this week. and let's get started. russia has dominated america's headlines this week in a way since it was the soviet
union: there were two main stories. first the cia's contention that russia leaking of its dnc hack was done specifically to boost donald trump's electoral chances. then increasing concerns about ties to russia in trump's inner circle and amongst his nominees. chief amongst them the nominee of secretary of state. he was awarded the medal of friendship by putin. are we on the brink of a change in america's alliances and policy toward russia? joining me here in new york is professor of rush that studies at nyu and prince sol and former deputy director of the counter terrorism. and in moscow, the editor in chief of russia in global aff r
affai affairs. ann, let me begin with you. can you lay out, you live in poland and in europe. can you lay out what you see as russia's strategy over the last two or three years, particularly with regard to its involvement in those cyber operations abroad? >> thanks, fareed. it's actually not two or three years. it goes back a bit longer than that. russia has a consistent pattern going back a decade of attempting to intervene and shape its neighbor's elections. partly through overt propaganda, partly through influenced buying. but also, interestingly, through internet trolls and social media campaigns that have caught many people unawares. there was a big russian impact on a recent polish impact. there have been russian impacts
on a number of other elections. of course the russian campaign that accompanied and followed the russian invasion of cry mee yeah, which, you know, was an enormous operation in which the russians sent out conflicting signals, sent out trolls to give a different picture of what was going on. this is now a consistent pattern. the russians attempt to use information and in particular to use social media to shape the policies of other countries. and the most recent example in the u.s. was also following a pattern they have used before, that is hacking into -- hacking into the politicianpoliticians,g information in an attempt to suede elections. they are doing it now in germany. they have done it elsewhere. >> phil mud, you worked at the cia and the fbi. how does this pattern strike
you? >> this strikes me as what we saw for years in terms of not only influence operations, but foreign governments in particular, the russians and the chinese, getting into u.s. systems, including the white house and extracting massive volumes of data. recently we have seen the state on the political front in the past, designed in military aircraft. that goes back years, the beginning of those technical operations. i think it highlights a point here, the conversations about something we concede digitally. did someone interseed before the election to acquire information that was released to affect the american political environment and the conversations about a much softer subject, why did they interseed and do we understand what the intent is. the issue of intercreedi inintee russians is clear. it allows intelligence to be confident in ascertaining who did this before the election.
>> because they could see it was the same groups. >> a lot of experience here. >> i want you to respond to what you have heard, but also what i want to ask you is would what you have been frank about in your writings is that russia is a power that is trying to alter or even upset the national order. you write in the foreign affairs essay that russia sees its subordinates position as an ill legitimate result of a never understooding u.s. campaign to keep russia down. you say that russia's decline in power since the collapse of the soviet union according to russia is a temporary revision that the west is trying to make permanent. is it fair to look at these operations and say russia is in fact trying to up end the national order because it has been unjust to moscow's place in the world. >> i think the international order which you mentioned that
won't exist anymore and it's not because of russian activities, i think many people in moscow would be very pleased to here what esteemed colleagues mentioned just now about enormous impact russia has on political systems in europe and the united states. i'm afraid, in fact, they are not that powerful. and what happens now with the international system or in particular countries, election results, unexpected results of votes and so on, this is a product of decline which failed, actually. as for russian attempts to influence other countries, i think we live in an open world where anybody, be it democratic or at the return countries, big or small countries, are very
vulnerable to any outside influences. and this is -- in this way, the result of openness which came with communication evolution and with the collapse of the soviet and disappearance of iron curtain. >> when we come back, first i will ask steve cone who he manges of all this and i will ask phil mud what washington can do to respond to russian actions. went onto ancestry, soon learned that one of our ancestors was eastern european. this is my ancestor who i didn't know about. (vo) it's the holidays at verizon, and the best deals are on the best network. with no surprise overages, you can use your data worry free and even carry over the data you don't use. and right now get four lines and 20 gigs for only $40 per line. you'll even get the iphone 7, the samsung galaxy s7, the pixel phone by google,
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and we are back with ann in london and here with me in new york steven cohen and phil mudd. what do you make of russia's moves over the last few years? >> i have to say in my 40 years of doing and thinking about this, i have never seen anything like this. we are at the moment, by whatever name, in a cold war with russia. more dangerous than the last one. as we talk, it's a confrontation fraught with the possibly of hot war from ukraine to syria. we have in the united states allegations, very little confirmed facts that i have seen that the russians tried to steal our election and that there is a pattern in europe and here that the russias are invading us.
meanwhile, the most reputable newspapers are referring to lackeys around trump. so what we really need is what we used to have, is a debate about our own policy and about these dangers and that we are not having that debate but discussing not a whole lot of factual confirmation. i think it puts us in a terrible crisis. and the end result would be a crippled american president who can't pursue whatever he wants to do with russia because he's going to be seen as a putin puppet in the white house. i have never seen anything like this before. now, trump during the election and i think i pointed this out maybe on your broadcast once said something that nobody else said. wouldn't it be great if we cooperate with russia. i hope he pursues that. but i strongly believe a lot of these allegations floating around are the enemies in this country.
senators such as mccain discredited not only putin but trump in making any new steps possible. >> what do you say? is there a prospect of a knew detente. >> i would like to quote something from march 2014. he said we won't know that putin went into crimea. we literally don't know. so he's somebody who has been repeatedly refusing to believe that russia has invaded foreign countries for the past two years. so his refusal to believe that i think is also part of a pattern. i think you'll find if you look at not just what the cia says, but what several independent groups have said, you can liar at fire.com. you can listen to the german intelligence services as well. you will discover that the hacking is real, that it's
happening and that far from inspiring the u.s. into a cold war, we have been very surprised by it. we haven't responded to it. this was first revealed last summer after all and there has been no real response, no action. i think on the contrary what we have seen is a pattern of really extraordinary russian aggression taking many new forms we're not used to and we have had no american response really whatsoever. >> phil mudd, what should the response be? how does one respond to something like this? >> i think we're way too similar plolice -- simplistic on this. we'll step back as a new president is coming in. you have to deal with russia on the security council in thinking about the iran sanctions. you have to deal with syria where the people we like are more and more losing. you look at what's happening in aleppo. that's a failure for america. so the question is not how we reset based on what happened with the election.
the question is in a variety of areas, we have to figure out how to make this work with putin, especially in a place like syria. the solution is not the opposition. they're losing. >> theodore, let me ask you. so the fundamental question would be, is it possible to imagine a situation with russia where the united states under p president trump or under any president could cut deals like this, could have a constructive foreign policy on iran, on syria and yet there be areas of disagreement. or again i go back to your art c kl that i thought was frank and honest and you say russia wants to bring down this international order because regard it as ill le legitimate. >> it is not because of russian actions. it is, rather, the rejection of
many other countries and people inside leading western states, which is being manifested in election and both results which is the real problem. i can't imagine constructive work between mr. putin and mr. trump on certain areas. syria might be one of those because everything we heard from trump about syria is actually that he perceives syria has less important for u.s. national interest and anything else. i cannot imagine constructive work on iran because mr. trump's rhetorics on iran is utterly aggressive, which is not at all the russian perception of this. and the biggest problem which i envision between trump and putin, and it might be a serious problem for mr. trump, who used to say that he can make better deals, he seems to believe that he can convince putin to abandon
with china and get russia on board against china or at least to work together with russia to counter china. i don't think it's realistic to expect. and it might be a big disappointment for mr. trump. but what is most important with trump is not his position on russia. most important is that he genuinely believes that america should not be in charge of the whole world and should not try to transform everybody else. and this is, of course, what russia would like. >> steve? >> yeah. i don't like being slurred by ann, but she does it regularly. i'll ignore it. i think american policy, and i'm not alone in this, towards post soviet russia has been catastrophic and led us to this moment. we need to rethink our policy toward russia. it is not just the expansion of
nato to russia's borders. are you aware that nato artillery can hit st. peters berg? imagine if chinese or russian artillery could hit washington? the country would be more hysterical than it is. we were talking about -- >> they could hit many capitals. >> let's talk about the united states because this is a debate among ourselves. i mean, he has his fight in moscow. we need to debate among ourselves for a wise policy. trump, though i didn't support him, is an opportunity to rethink american policy. you asked or somebody asked would detente be a good thing. i think it's the essential thing. i think it's the only way to save our national security given this perilous moment. >> steve, phil, theodore, ann, thank you all very much.
next on gps, donald trump has named a climate change head of the protection agency and will cancel america's participation in the parties agreement. i will present an argument as to why he shouldn't do that. your insurance company won't replace the full value of your totaled new car. the guy says you picked the wrong insurance plan. no, i picked the wrong insurance company. with liberty mutual new car replacement™, you won't have to worry about replacing your car because you'll get the full value back including depreciation.
secretary of energy. last week he appointed scott pruitt as head of the epa. both are climate change deniers and this makes people nervous that trump will make good on his campaign promise to withdraw from the parties agreement. the landmark deal to combat climate change. but the president-elect has been meeting with climate change activists and he has said he has an open mind on the topic of global warning. >> i'm still open minded. nobody really knows. look, i'm somebody that gets it. and nobody really knows. >> so what is the best case that they could make to donald trump not to reanything nrenig on par. i asked for the best argument. it all starts with the economy. according to the international energy agency, the u.s. solar
energy created jobs at a rate 12 times faster than the economy has a whole last year. in fact, a report in may said that in the u.s. there are now more jobs in solar energy alone than in all of oil and natural gas extraction. it shows that renewable energy jobs have increased by about 6% across the board, while employment in oil and gas extraction have contracted by 18%. mr. trump has said he is going to create 25 million new jobs. the number is hyper bollic, but i would say clean energy jobs are good paying in growing companies in an industry of the future. a crucial point that trump made to me is that the rest of the world is moving fast to a low ca carbon economy. china is now the biggest employer when it comes to renewable energy with a million more than in their oil and gas
sector. clean energy technologies will be a huge opportunity for the countries that develop and build them. the u.s. should be a lead player in this growing global market, selling the best technology, products and energy to all in the world. and that's why some 365 american corporations and investors sent a letter to trump last month imploring him to stick to the paris deal. pulling out of paris would be very complicated and messy. article 28 of the agreement says that countries can withdraw, but not until four years after the agreement went into force. that means the potential withdraw date is november 2020. when donald trump's first presidential term will be coming to a close. and let's not forget the most powerful force of all on this topic, mother nature. there really is broad agreement amongst the vast majority of scientists that without action the earth will continue its
warming trend, which would have unpredictable effects for human beings. over 800 earth science experts wrote to donald trump this month urging him to take action on climate change. shifting to clean energy is good for the nirenvironment, good fo jobs and international cooperation. when donald trump falls sick he listens to an expert called a doctor. when he builds a building, he following the plans by engineers. on this vital issue, i hope he will keep an open mind, listen to the experts and scientists and chart a course that would make america great as a clean energy super power. next on gps many progressives have worried much of the forward movement made during the obama movement will be torn aside as soon as trump takes the oval
office. are the nation's mayors are first line of defense against that. i will talk to the mayor of los angeles about just that. you got the amazing new iphone 7 on the house by switching to at&t... what??.... aand you got unlimited data because you have directv?? (laughs to self in disbelief) okay, just a few more steps... door! it's cool! get the iphone 7 on us and unlimited data when you switch to at&t and have directv.
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it's the only way to know for sure. donald trump talks about deporting millions of undocumented immigrants including children and a group of mayors stepped into to ask him to reconsider. donald trump talks about canceling u.s. participation in the paris climate change agreement and a group of mayors stepped in to ask him to instead accept and embrace that agreement. can america's mayors stand up to trump? should they? joining me now in los angeles is that city's mayor and here with me in new york is a scholar and author of a book entitled if mayors ruled the world. dysfunctional nations, rising cities. you have a piece where you argue that cities can counter the power of president-elect trump. how can they do it? >> well, there are a lot of different ways, but here is the reality today.
after 400 years of nation states as the primary instruments of national governance, whether it's immigration, economy, war and peace, security, increasingly nations have become dysfunctional, way before trump, by before brexit. as bordered independent sovereign bodies they can't deal with all of the global cross border problems we face, whether it's immigration, the global economy. increasingly, it is not nation states, but cities that are taking up the slack because cities have pragmatic can do mayors. it is cities that are dealing on the front line with global problems like global warming, terrorism. those are really city responsibilities. and now as we see in england with brexit in the united states with trump, eat logical reactionaries who don't want to
try to use government to do the things that government does, it increasingly is going to fall to cities to do those jobs. i talk about the concept of city sovereignties, that cities have to guarantee the life, liberty and property of their citizens in the place of national governments that either can't or won't do it. >> how would this work given that when you look at trump's vote, it was in large part a rural backlash against urban america. he won the rural vote big and clearly. there was a certain sense of resentment. when you talk to him, which you did, was he making nice? >> we had a very productive conversation. we have spoken three times, actually. and i think we have a shared agenda. i don't have time to politicize or time to demon niize. i have to fix roads. i have to reduce traffic in my city. and i can't pick and choose that
you are allowed to be here and you are not allowed to be here. our great strength has been the immigrants, the backbone of our economy and our security here in los angeles. so we had a good conversation about those things, but it cuts to the core how cities will move the agenda forwards. he understands that cities need inf infrastructu infrastructure. i think we will be able to find that common ground and he'll see the economic arguments as well as the moral ones why it's important to continue a conclusive society. >> the difference in perspective. clearly feels that immigrants, for example, are vibrant part of the dna of the city. and, yet, there is this reaction. i was looking at numbers. when you look at all these charts, it does look like a sea of red that donald trump won versus these little slivers of blue. and you realize cities make up
3.5% of america's land space, but they house something like 55% of the population. >> and produce 80% of the wealth and 95% of the universities and 98% of the culture and 99% of the patent. that's true across the world, not just the united states. cities are the life blood. they are what make this country run. farmers are great. suburbs are fine. we've got to all work together, no question about that. but the division here is not making wae ining war on the subt voters feeling resentment against cities. i appreciate the mayor and he is right to say the first job of a mayor is to work with the new president, whatever party. the new president has said we will not tolerate sanction waua
cities. if that happens, mayors are going to have to be ready to say not just we're going to work with you, mr. president, but we are not going to let you do certain things. two weeks ago in a remarkable speech where lincoln spoke a long time ago, he said, if the feds come and try to remove immigrants, we will resist. if the feds come and try to register muslims, we will not comply. if the feds come and try to take away the rights of women, we will not let that happen. >> eric, are you being played? will you resist? >> we are prepared. we state our values. we look to collaborate, but we're not shy about being able to say here in los angeles and throughout our cities i authored that letter to our president-elect on climate change that said we're not going to be held back no matter what you do.
i'm still buying electric vehicles for my fleet. converting our energy to green electricity, making sure our building codes can handle reduced water. but we will stand up for the values that are american values. my city is 63% immigrants or the children of immigrants. i am the grandson of a dreamer who came across the border from mexico probably without any documents fleeing a war and now i'm a mayor of the largest city in the largest state in this union. when we invest in our immigrants we get safer streets where people trust the police, not fear them and i think we will say that loudly and clearly to any threat against that, not just across this nation but across the world. people in london, france. i was just with mayor of mexico city where we came together to speak about the importance of fighting climate change because we are the ones dealing with it.
we will stand up and look for areas of collaboration. but we cannot be weak at this moment. we have to stand for the values that defined this country and that we need in this world. >> you are a great optimist. and if you can solve the problem of traffic in los angeles, you could run for president. >> speaking of those rural areas, vice president biden said his party faired so poorly in the november election because it overlooked them. was that the problem? thomas frank and the connecticut governor, dan maloy. the end zone. the goal of every team. we know you have goals. like getting exposure for your idea or business. with godaddy website builder, you can easily create an awesome mobile-friendly, get you more exposure website. we call that...a website builder touchdown. get your free trial of website builder now.
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i want you to take a look at a chart that's been flying around the internet. democratics have been sharing it. it shows the loss of seats the democratic saw between 2008 and 2016. grant it it is one snapshot in time but it is stunning. 20% fewer in the u.s. house and in state legislatures and an astounding 35% fewer governor ships than eight years ago. what went wrong with america's oldest party? joining me now is thomas frank, an author of listen liberal or whatever happened to the party of the people and dan maloy.
. your analysis of the party is pretty simple. it became a party -- the democratic party became a party of coastal elites, cosmopolitan professionals who worry about all kinds of things like lifestyle and cultural issues and environmental issues and lost focus on the white working class. but i guess the question to you would be what should the message have been that wasn't -- wasn't articulating. >> look, one of the big problems, one of the reasons that hill lair's message did not resonate is people did not believe her. she had -- on paper she had all sorts of great ideas. she -- but, you look at the environment that she's coming into. look, we have been fighting over the same things for quite a while in this country and we elected barack obama eight years ago to deal for a lot of the same reasons and to deal with a
lot of the same issues and long story short, he didn't do it. you know, he wasn't there on a lot of the most important things. and, you know -- >> specifically what? what? what? what? >> there is a lot of things that leap to mind these days like getting tough with wall street is the main failure of the obama years. he didn't do that when he was elected to do that very thing back in 2009. but there is many things now that you think of in hindsight he should have done. for example, renegotiating nafta, which he says he wanted to do back in 2008. another thing, he was going to come down like a sledge hammer on agricultural monopolies. and you think how that would have helped him in these rural areas. make it easier to form a labor union. that would have been huge. >> governor, the argument, you know, is that the democratic party needs to be more pop you
list, more left wing, more caution about trade. >> i think it's part of the path or has to be part of the discussion. i don't think we spoke to a lot of our former supporters. we didn't reach out to them properly, i think. we also were up against quite a phenomenon, if you think about mr. trump's trajectory. but i absolutely agree. we need to talk about issues that are important to people. >> let me ask you about things don frank specifically talks about, should be tougher on trade. perhaps even against trade, against nafta, against the tpp and should be much tougher on wall street. what i wonder is i saw you quoted as saying, well, you know, let's not forget. we also have a modern professional voter who might get turned off by this. >> you know, i think -- i do think we need to change how we speak to folks. and quite frankly, i think we need to be less washington
centric and more trenton or any other state capital centric. it is an interesting difference, you know. if you think about who speaks to democratics in the media, it is from new york and it is from washington. if you think about who spokes to the republicans, it is a guy in the basement studio down in it's a couple of guys in nevada. we have to need beyond our comfort level to speak to people in terms that are important to them. >> let me ask you what strikes you as the biggest thesis, part of what alienated the white working class in the united states from the democratic party, it seems to me is the -- that the democratic party has pushed a set of ideas that one could call cultural liberalism or what you will, gay marriage, gay rights, transgender rights, issues like global warming.
i don't think you can have it both ways. >> you can. you have to have it both ways. >> there will produce a backlash but give people the bread of bank regulation and they'll be satisfied. >> it's a little -- it's a little more than that. you go to the small towns that are just mentioned and these places -- i was out in rural missouri the other day and these towns look like a neutron bomb went off in them. main street is boarded up. young people leave as soon as they graduate from high school. the main industry is methamphetamine. it is a disaster zone all over america. this is because of -- we know why it's happening, right? but the democrats who were once upon time the traditional voice of those people, aren't helping them out. i don't think you need to throw the cultural issue -- i'm a very strong liberal on the cultural issues you just mentioned. i don't think you need to throw
those things overboard in order to help people out in rural missouri, you have to do both. >> we have to do both and we have to do both by getting to people inside their living room. a telling point in this election was when donald trump told everyone when they were in more danger than they've ever been when crime is at a nearly all time low. in our state, 50 year low on crime. violent down 23% in the last three years. to listen to donald trump talk about that, democrats don't have anything to show for that except higher crime. we gave up on that issue, didn't argue sufficiently or push back sufficiently and quite frankly, we have a party in the republican party, the trump republican party because i'm not sure the old republican party still exists that actually is based on convincing people how bad off they are even when they feel good about themselves. >> pleasure to have you both on. >> next on gps, the world was once again paying attention to syria this week as aleppo fell
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president elect donald trump's announcement of exxon ceo rex tillerson as his nominee for secretary of state raised eyebrows this week. this brings me to my question, when was the last time the senate rejected a president's cabinet nomination, 1976, 1989, 2004 or 2008. this week's book of the week is my book, in defense of a liberal education, it's the last time i can plug it. it's in paperback and would fit into most stockings. now for the last look, this is virtually the last look aaleppo as the ruined city falls from rebel control into the hands of the assad regime. it had been syria's most populist city and major tourist destination, home to the famed mosque and many historic
buildings dating back to biblical times. it was declared a world heritage site in 1986 now the city has been utterly destroyed and remains looking like a post apocalyptic -- >> it was about 3 million. now the small fraction who remain, perhaps thousands, are trapped. to see these shocking scenes play out, paying attention to donald trump's every tweet. the american ambassador to the u.n. made an impassioned speech to the u.n. security council taking aim at russia and syria and iran. saying, you bear responsibility for these atrocities. but she continued. >> are you truly incapable of shame? is there literally nothing that
can shame you? no act of barberism against civilians against execution of a child that gets under your skin and creeps you out a little bit? >> those three nations bear the brunt of the blame, yes, but we all stood witness and we all did so very little. this holiday season, i urge you to take some action. donate to charities like the international rescue committee and mercy corps, whose aid workers are risking their lives to offer what assistance they can to the desperate men and women and children of syria. any amount, no matter how small, makes a difference. the correct answer to the "gps" challenge question is b, the u.s. senate last rejected a cabinet nomination in 1989 when george h.w. bush nominated senator john tower as secretary of defense. it was the first cabinet
nomination to be rejected by the senate in 30 years. trump's nominees may face tough questioning in the senate in 2017, but history shows it is very rare that they actually reject a nomination. thanks for being part of my program today. i will see you next week. >> happening now in the newsroom. >> this is the sign of a possible unraveling of world order. >> an ominous warning from senator john mccain as he calls for an investigation into election meddling by russia. plus buses finally arriving in aleppo as thousands of desperate citizens try to evacuate. a popular tourist destination in the middle east under attack. "newsroom" starts now. >> it is 2:00 on the east cot.